проф. HBS Гарварда называет русского студента идиотом

mayuka

Коротко: некто профессор Гарварда Роджерс высказал на лекции мнение, что в РФ полная жопа с инвестициями и пр.
Некто российский студент отвечает, что не согласен с профессором и получает очень грубый (вплоть до оскорблений ответ).
отдельные вырезки ответа профессора русскому студенту:
- It is better to remain silent and have people wonder if you are an idiot rather than to open your mouth and prove to everyone in sight that you are an idiot beyond all doubt.
- You really should have kept your mouth shut and stopped long ago.
- You really should have kept your mouth shut, but since you opened it: What balderdash.
- Or perhaps you were long then too and got wiped out which is why you had to go to b school.
Рассуждения профессора здравы, спорю не с ними - можно спорить / оспорить.
В принципе, цинично-объективно профессор говорит примерно "какой же ты еще глупый сопляк", но подобная грубость профессора гарварда удивила
+ отношение профессора-америкоса к России вызывает мое личное возмущение.
+ то, что профессор при ответе поставил в копию два курса, выставив парня каким-то дураком, хотя событие имело место на лекции одного курса, что вызывает также возмущение.
=============Сама переписка========================
update: переписка из Гарварда l Subject: The real facts about Russia
This happened a few days ago at HBS. It's a bit hard to follow, so I'll give you some context. Apparently, Jim Rogers (never heard of him before, but apparently he's in that Money Masters book) gave a talk at HBS. One of the students disagreed with some of his comments, and he sent an email to Jim Rogers, CCing all the students in the audience. Jim Rogers then responded back. Scroll down to read the student email and Jim Rogers's response is below that.
Subject: The real facts about Russia
Dear Mr. Rogers:
I am the "lad" who disputed your factual claims with regard to Russia today. First of all, I would like to thank you for speaking to us at the Harvard Business School. I think I speak for my fellow HBS students when I say that we enjoyed your original views and interesting stories today. However, I must address the unfortunate reality that your facts about Russia are plain wrong. You made three principal inaccurate claims today - I will deal with all of them in sequence.
Claim People are leaving Russia
Wrong. In fact, according to Financial Times, your favorite newspaper, Russia turns out to be the second largest recipient of immigrants after the US (see attached FT article). Oops. While it is true that Russia's population is declining but the reasons for that have nothing to do with people leaving the country, it is things like low birth rate (only 1.2 per woman which is an issue that confronts many European states.
Claim ussia's production of oil is declining, oil companies do not reinvest in production
Wrong and wrong. Russian oil production has increased for the fifth year in a row (see attached Reuters article and Russian oil majors are reinvesting in production (many of them have US GAAP accounts audited by Big Four firms you could easily have access to if you chose to look).
Claim Investors are leaving Russia
Wrong again. Equity indexes (US Dollar denominated) are trading around their all time highs (see attached Barrons article Russian bond yields are at historical lows. As an experienced investor, surely you will recognize these as pretty convincing signs of investor confidence.
Overall state of the economy
Finally, I would like to quote World Bank's recent report on Russia:
"The Russian Federation has made remarkable progress in tackling crisis and moving towards sustainable development between 1999 and 2002. With a much more stable political environment, the government has been able to build on experience gained in the 1990s and implement a sound reform agenda, in addition to maintaining macro-economic stability. Since 1999, assisted by high commodity prices, the economy has recorded strong growth, business confidence has revived, and poverty has declined. Russia's sovereign credit rating has improved, although it has yet to reach investment grade. The speed and extent of recovery has taken most observers by surprise. Between early 1999 and end 2001, GDP grew by 21 percent, inflation fell from 86 percent to 18 percent, the fiscal situation turned around from a deficit of 5 percent of GDP to a surplus of 3 percent of GDP, and barter and arrears largely disappeared."
GDP growth of 21%? Hardly a picture of total collapse, don't you think?
Conclusion
I believe the facts speak for themselves. I have no time or desire to try to convince you to invest in Russia. However, I do kindly ask you to abstain from
spreading inaccurate information. You are a public figure and many people including future leaders at Harvard Business School listen to you; it would be very unfortunate if they were misled by your inaccurate statements. Finally, if nothing else, it is not good for your own public image.
Kind regards,
№№№№№№№, CFA
P.S. I took the liberty of sending a copy of this email to my fellow students so that we can set the record straight.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Rogers [mailto:jimrogers.com
> <mailto:jimrogers.com> ]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:23 AM
> > > To: №№№№№@mba2004.hbs.edu
> > > Cc:
>
> Subject: RE: The real facts about Russia
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for coming and for writing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I rarely suffer fools gladly and even more rarely
> > > bother with chauvinistic know nothings, but since
> > > you sent this ludicrous canard:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [1] My goodness. Not only do you have no idea about
> > > what you are speaking, we now know you cannot read.
> > > The "immigration study" you mention was a bunch of
> > > estimates for the years 1970 to 1995. What the hell
> > > does that have to do with Russia in the past 8
> > > years? Many were forced to go into Russia from the
> > > Soviet Republics under the Communists, but that was
> > > hardly free immigration as in the other countries.
> > > Even if people were going into Russia in the early
> > > 1990s, they were Russians being forced to leave the
> > > old USSR republics as the USSR dissolved in the
> > > early 1990s and those Russians fled back into
> > > Russia.
> > >
> > > You have demonstrated you cannot read nor analyze
> > > nor have any concept of what is happening in Russia
> > > today, but do you not at least know a little Russian
> > > history?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [2] Oh my. You really should have kept your mouth
> > > shut and stopped long ago. This is not from
> > > "Reuters". It is from the Russian government - the
> > > same group which claims to have had a balance of
> > > trade surplus for the last 9 years. The same group
> > > of bureaucrats and charlatans who became a laughing
> > > stock with their "facts" under the USSR. The same
> > > who say that the Russian balance of trade in that
> > > period has been among the largest in the world. I
> > > did not think even B school students fell for that
> > > claptrap any more. But then you are the one who says
> > > the ruble is a good buy and that "it is a strong
> > > currency". I suggest you check your facts on what
> > > has happened to the ruble in those 9 years when
> > > Russia "had the strongest balance of trade surplus
> > > in the world". And that was a period when huge sums
> > > were also flowing in from the World Bank, IMF, etc,
> > > etc. "Inflows from the strongest balance of trade in
> > > the world and billions from the World Bank, etc" yet
> > > the currency kept declining. I and most others find
> > > that extremely strange.
> > >
> > > Somehow or another the currency kept falling since
> > > most of us realized the same old bureaucrats were
> > > spewing out the same old garbage. I guess you were
> > > buying rubles all that time. No wonder you are in
> > > school rather than making it in the real world. You
> > > must have gone broke buying all those rubles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And if Russian oil production is really up so much,
> > > why is the price of oil still so high? So you are
> > > indeed a gullible lad, but fortunately the market
> > > knows a lot more than you and your wailing into the
> > > wind.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You might read the section of my book about Russia's
> > > reported figures - especially the trade figures. Or
> > > get some one to read it to you and explain it to
> > > you.
> > >
> > > I know you said you have driven across Russia from
> > > the Pacific to Europe, but I'd like to know your
> > > route and which border crossings you used and who
> > > you found out there counting all this stuff.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [3] You really should have kept your mouth shut, but
> > > since you opened it: What balderdash. Now we know
> > > you have no understanding of markets in addition to
> > > being unable to read or comprehend. The Russian
> > > "market" is tiny and is insignificant compared to
> > > GNP so it is meaningless. Even your article points
> > > out that the few big hydrocarbon companies account
> > > for 70% of the stock market. [a] The price of oil
> > > more than doubled in the period the article
> > > discusses and [b] those stocks went up because of
> > > that and because of the manipulation by the
> > > oligarchs. Perhaps you did not notice your article
> > > mentioned the "murky" dealings in Russia?
> > >
> > > I hardly consider 2 mutual funds and 4 or 5
> > > manipulated oil stocks "as pretty convincing signs
> > > of investor confidence".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But if you really believe all this codswallop, why
> > > are you in business school? Why aren't you there
> > > making your fortune?
> > >
> > > I presume you are long the Russian stock market?
> > >
> > > For what it is worth, I was short the ruble and the
> > > Russian market in the summer of 1998 and back in the
> > > earlier bubble in the mid 1990s when Russia and its
> > bureaucrats were going on and on with the same absurdity. Go back and
> > look up what
> > > happened both times. Or perhaps you were long then too
> > and
> > got
> > > wiped out which is why you had to go to b school.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [4] "Overall state of the economy": Now we are
> > > getting really embarrassed for you! The World Bank
> > > also praised Russia in 1998 just before the last
> > > collapse and in the mid 1990s just in time for that
> > > collapse. They also wrote in rapturous terms about
> > > all the Asia Tigers in mid 1997 just in time for the
> > > Asian Crisis [I was short Hong Kong back then too
> > > right into the World Bank's rapture.] And the World
> > > Bank could not give Argentina enough money in the
> > > summer and fall of 2001 because of "its progress"
> > > when I was getting all my money out. [All this is
> > > very much on the public record so you do not need to
> > > fret about my image.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Need I go on? No one has ever stayed solvent much
> > > less made money listening to the World Bank [except
> > > business school professors who "consult" for them].
> > >
> > > Oh dear, you get your information from the Russian
> > > government and the World Bank!? Are you mad? I know
> > > you say you have driven across Russia, but who do
> > > you really think is out there in those 11 time zones
> > > and tens of thousands on kilometers of Russia
> > > collecting all this "reliable data"?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And thanks for your advice about my analysis, facts
> > > and my "public image". If you had done your
> > > homework, you'd know the public was and is extremely
> > > aware that I had shorted the ruble in 1998 and back
> > > in the mid 1990s [when I guess you were long]. It
> > > was the same kind if misinformation back then too
> > > that gullible souls like you swallowed.
> > >
> > > And the public is extremely aware of my record of
> > > investing in many markets all over the world for
> > > many years. You might read John Train's Money
> > > Masters of Our Time or one of several other books. I
> > > do not worry about it, but you should worry about
> > > yours.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But as for public image and inaccurate statements,
> > > you have demonstrated quite publicly and vocally
> > > that you can neither read nor comprehend what you
> > > read nor can you analyze anything in front of you
> > > and that you fall for anything someone tells you and
> > > that you have absolutely no knowledge of even recent
> > > Russian history. I was terribly embarrassed for you
> > > when you stood there babbling on in front of the
> > > others about the strong ruble - a currency which has
> > > been nothing but a catastrophe for a decade [despite
> > > your painfully absurd statements], but now you have
> > > shouted your hopelessness from the roof tops for all
> > > to see.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope your classmates will pull you aside and pass
> > > on this word of advice: It is better to remain
> > > silent and have people wonder if you are an idiot
> > > rather than to open your mouth and prove to everyone
> > > in sight that you are an idiot beyond all doubt. And
> > > one should never, ever go shouting from the rooftops
> > > when one is a total idiot because then the entire
> > > school knows it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > FYI
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Editorial Review
> > > It's the ultimate road trip. Legendary investor Jim
> > > Rogers and his fianc?travel to 116 countries in a custom-built
> > > four-wheel-drive bright yellow Mercedes. Over three years,
> > they make
> > > their way through war zones, are guarded by military
> > convoys,
> > > observe a fifty-million-person pilgrimage, eat
> > > disgusting food, put the car on barges for transport
> > > between countries, and have their lives threatened
> > > at every turn. As well as describing his adventures,
> > > Rogers has plenty to say about the economies and
> > > roads he encounters on his journey. (Naturally, he's
> > > driven on the best roads and the worst.) With his
> > > keen financial acumen, he picks out those countries
> > > with the highest prospective economic success and
> > > which ones are headed for disaster. All in all, a
> > > wonderful trip.
> > >
> > > "If Warren Buffett and Bill Bryson were trapped in a
> > > car with each other for three years, they might
> > > write like Jim Rogers." (B.O.T Editorial Review
> > > Board)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You can order my new book ADVENTURE CAPITALIST
> > > [Random House 2003] from
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3D...
> el
> <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3dbooks%26fie> l>
> d-ti
> > tleid%3D1424139%26ve-field%3Dnone/qid%3D/102-7686484-9696912
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 800-201-3550
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or on my own website if the link above does not
> > > work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > www.jimrogers.com
> > >

stm7929259

Разбираться в чужом базаре впадлу, тем более в переписке
Если в целом, профессор HBS сказал, что Россия - гавно, а студент отрицает это и приводит боянные аргументы (некоторые из них уже не актуальны)... Так?
И чо?
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:23 AM
давно это было...
Сейчас ситуация изменилась, например с аргументом:
Investors are leaving Russia

selena12

а в МГУ при мне как-то лекторша по истории и культурологии (!) назвала студента сукиным сыном. вот.

mayuka

Разбираться в чужом базаре впадлу, тем более в переписке
Если в целом, профессор HBS сказал, что Россия - гавно, а студент отрицает это и приводит боянные аргументы (некоторые из них уже не актуальны)... Так?
И чо?
да не, понятно, что было давно, анализировать 2003 год сейчас не предлагаю - просто как-то это особо грубо от профессора на весь курс форварднуть, что дескать ты идиот
Но след. после поста про сукиного сына я так понимаю, что и в мгу этим не удивить.Хотя что-то не вспомню, чтобы по время учебы кто-то на фф так позволял себе делать... м.б. я ошибаюсь

urchin

а в МГУ при мне как-то лекторша по истории и культурологии (!) назвала студента сукиным сыном. вот.
У него случайно не Пушкин фамилия?

selena12

Но след. после поста про сукиного сына я так понимаю, что и в мгу этим не удивить.Хотя что-то не вспомню, чтобы по время учебы кто-то на фф так позволял себе делать... м.б. я ошибаюсь
дело, было, кстати, как раз на фф, а вот лекторша была с какого-то гумфака

atsel

Как-то при мне на лекции по истории отечественного государства и права
лектор, достаточно пожилая женщина, говорит какому-то шумному, сидящему на заднем ряду чурбану:
"Пошел вон, смерд!". Аудитория выпала в аут минуты на 3.

stbloom

это она скастила заклинание "изгнать смерда".

FieryRush

Коротко: некто профессор Гарварда Роджерс высказал на лекции мнение, что в РФ полная жопа с инвестициями и пр.
Некто российский студент отвечает, что не согласен с профессором и получает очень грубый (вплоть до оскорблений ответ).
Джим Роджерс - близкий соратник Джорджа Сороса, которого как известно
а) грубо кинули со связьинвестом
б) он потерял много бабла на нашем кризисе 98-го
в) и вообще его жестко выживали из России
Так что я не вижу ничего удивительного в том, что Роджерс обругал какого-то студня выскочку.

parfum74

Вообще-то за такое с профессора бабло можно через суд стрясти. Свидетели есть - целая аудитория. Порядка цыфирь не знаю, но, думаю, лимон баксов минимум + суд обяжет принести прилюдные извинения.
Если бы вместо русского парня в такой ситуации оказался американский еврей - он бы посчитал это подарком судьбы.

FieryRush

А, почитал аргументы этого чувака - это древний боян. Кстати, Роджерс был прав что называется all along - доверять странам типа России, где коррумпированное правительство и отсутствие нормальной экономики, нельзя. Ну да Гаап-хуяп, доклад ворлд-банка, рост гдп и фондового рынка. Аж 5 лет еще все это длилось и что в итоге - за полгода все просрано.

popov-xxx25

Если бы вместо русского парня в такой ситуации оказался американский еврей - он бы посчитал это подарком судьбы.
У него и в суде было бы больше шансов, чем у русского парня ... :crazy:

olga58

soglasen

demiurg

Да, Джим Роджерс — это миллиардер, который торгует коммодами, а не профессор Гарварда.

RUSTEANA2003

>> коммод
WTF ?

sed777771

Аж 5 лет еще все это длилось и что в итоге - за полгода все просрано.
Некоторые успели квартирку по Ипотеке в Подольске взять, да Ингисом разжиться....
Так что если теперь этими ресурсами грамотно распорядиться, то можно и дальше развиваться.

sed777771

Давайте по делам судить :
Те кто в 2003 году положил 100 баксов на рублёвый депозит в ВТБ получил в 2008 году 200 баксов.
А те кто вложил в ЛемонБразерс могли получить только 150, но ввиду кризиса получили фигу с маслом.
Так что не прав был профессор. ( Я тоже бываю не прав местами, буду рад контр примерам)

algurov

все это напоминает синдром иностранца\неместного.когда все, что касается его родной страны\края\деревни и так далее вызывает его правденый гнев и по возможности опровергается.
дело не в том что плохо или хорошо опровергается, а в том, что это часто неуместно. и естественно раздражает препода. тем более такого шишку, как оказывается.  

a-shin

есть еще обоснованная критика, а есть необоснованная, которая уже называется в зависимости от обстоятельств заблуждением, ложью, клеветой и т.д.
стоит ли опровергать неверные сведения, мнения, о своей стране или стОт оставить на совести говорившего?

algurov

по обстоятельствм. а проще не корчить из себя ГЕРОЯ МАТРОСОВА. и похже после пары погвоорить с преподавателем. предельно корректно, предельно вежливо. чаще всего ППС соглашаются с тем. что действительно немного перегнули палку, или разъясняют, что было не так понято.ППС такжде потом на следуещей паре извинялись и уточняли что они имели ввиду. за что им респект, могли бы и забить.
мнение одногруппников и однокурсников в такой ситуации волновать не должно. Ибо нормальные адекватные люди  поймут всегда, а дебилам не объяснишь никогда. а прилюдный срач с преподом (подрыв доверия к преподу) вызывает лютую бешеную ненависть оного и карается. и ксттаи приносит массу лулзов другим. пока ты срешься с преподом, другие усиленно лезут в жопу ему, осуждаще глядя на тебя и одобряюще кивая преподу. половина курса может ваще не втыкать что происходит, так как не услашала начала и так далее.никогда не понимал тех кто кидается под танк.
в некоторых вопросах проще тихо молчать в тряпочку. в конце концов твоя задача отучиться, а не развязывать войну из-за нефтяных месторождений или внешней\внутренней  политики родины или россии или др г-в. и еще  - мнение студента (иностранца) обычно никого не е...т.примечание: иностранные студенты из "братских" республик любят сраться друг с другом. чем порождают кучу лулзов для других и только.

selena12

commodities, по всей видимости
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